tv CNN Newsroom CNN November 29, 2014 2:00pm-3:01pm PST
going. >> i think it suddenly strikes you that in order to really understand where you're going, you have to understand from where you came. >> you came from. yeah. >> that makes sense, huh? now it makes more sense than ever. >> yes. you are in the "cnn newsroom" i'm suzanne malveaux. what really happened when michael brown and officer darren wilson met last august in the middle of a ferguson, missouri, street? well, what we know for sure is that there was a struggle and officer wilson shot and killed michael brown. well, grand jurors as you know decided not to indict officer wilson and they had a chance to review all of the evidence. well, for the next hour we're going to do the same with the help of our two legal analysts joey jackson and paul callan they've been poring through the evidence ever since it was released and they have found key
points that offer new insight in to what really happened. want to start with an in-depth look at how the altercation played out moment by moment. here's cnn's susan kancandiotti. >> reporter: the bruises to his face don't appear serious yet officer dayan wilson said the unches he took from teenager michael brown ultimately led him to fear for his life. right out of the gate a battle of wills. hey, why don't you walk on the sidewalk, the officer tells brown and his friend dorian johnson. according to wilson the teenager answers [ bleep ] what you have to say. the officer testifies he put two and two together that both teens might be suspects in an alleged store robbery minutes earlier. wilson puts his car in reverse and calls for backup. hey, come here for a minute, wilson testifies. what the [ bleep ] are you going to do about it the teen allegedly fires back. wilson then tells brown to get the [ bleep ] back. the 6'4", 210-pound officer says
he felt intimidated by the 6'5", 289-pound teen. when i grabbed him, he testified, i felt like a 5-year-old holding on to hulk hogan. the teen, wilson says, hit him across the cheek. wilson, i felt another one of those punches could knock me out or worse. he had the most intense face. it looked like a demon. wilson describes a struggle for his gun. the teen is shot in his right hand. he runs. so does officer wilson. he makes like a grunting a va grunting aggravating sound. he turns and coming back towards me. his left hand goes in a fist and goes to his side. his right one goes under his waistband and he starts running at me. not all but several witnesses back up wilson. one witness testifies i seen some type of movement and he started charging towards the police officer. blood drops indicated by circles on in grand jury chart showing
how far brown ran before he turned around may have helped convince jurors. >> it's really undeniable that he turned because the blood trail turned and that he came back 25 feet. >> reporter: about eight feet short of wilson. at least 12 shots are fired. at least six hit brown. the volley captured on a nearby cell phone. i tell him get on the ground. get on the ground. he still keeps coming at me. i'm backpedaling pretty good because i know if he reaches me he'll kill me. but were the teen's hands up in surrender or down? for police it may not matter. >> this walking toward somebody that is an aggressive situation for the person you're walking towards. that's why they want you on the ground. >> reporter: wilson fires the final and fatal shot to the top of the teenager's head. his face went blank. the aggression was gone. the threat was stopped. but when a grand jury decides
wilson should not be charged, violence begins. susan candiotti, cnn, new york. >> so, legal analyst paul callan and joey jackson are joining us now and we want to start off with the physical evidence in this case. joey, there's a lot of work to be done here when you look at this. we're talking about this trail of blood drops, also the location of the shell casings. what do we know about the physical evidence? what does it tell us and what does it not tell us? >> a great question. here's the point of view, when you look at the car itself, suzanne, and that's where things initially occurred, you see shell casings and there are two shell casings there. that's instructive because at least it tells us there were two rounds discharged. the thing it limits, and there's other evidence we'll get to, the thing that it limits is how they got there. we know there was the gun discharge. who was the aggressor? was it that michael brune was aggressive and striking the officer? was it that the officer was reaching out and pulling michael brown? what was the altercation all
about? so the physical evidence doesn't lie but it's certainly subject to interpretation. we also know at the car itself there's some tissue mass of the thumb of michael brown inside that car and that's indicative of michael brown having his hand in there, you know, and that certainly tells that and there's also blood inside the car of having to do with michael brown. that's really important because, again, it goes to the issue of the struggle but it doesn't actually tell you how that struggle occurred and that's what's critical. >> paul, so jump in here. is the physical evidence, is it really enough to determine what happened here or do we have to rely on more than that to get to the bottom of this? >> no, we need a lot more than that to put this whole story together and it's really a fascinating story when you do put it together. i mean, and i think frankly, you got to reach back in time even before the encounter at the car to find out how, you know, mike brown and dorion johnson wound up at that spot. but getting back to the physical evidence with respect to the car. the one thing it confirms, and i
don't think there's a lot of dispute about this, there was a struggle in that car. >> right. >> and unquestionably the officer's gun discharged twice. now, premember when this case first broke it wasn't clear how the struggle happened, who initiated it, whether the gun went off during the struggle. but i think all parties now would probably agree that there was a struggle and the gun discharged. now, there might be a difference of opinion as to why the gun discharged and who was responsible for that but the physical evidence confirms those aspects of the story. >> go ahead. >> one thing really critical, suzanne, certainly what i would have liked to have seen would be a test of the gun whether it relates to prints or whether it relates to dna and that's absent. so when we talk about physical evidence, obviously we have to talk about the lack of physical evidence because, you know, there was the indication by darren wilson that michael brown grabbed that gun and he was pushing it down towards his hip and as a result of that certainly you would want a test done to show, "a," was there prints there or, "b," skin cell
dna and there was no information of a dna being found. >> we have no information that any prints were found on the gun or dna found on the gun that would shed light on officer wilson's claim that -- and by the way, his wording was that he could feel michael brown's finger going for the trigger of the gun during the struggle and that put him in fear of his life. >> we are going to talk a little bit more about that but i want to talk about something, paul, you discovered in the grand jury testimony. dorian johnson testifies that now big mike is able to turn different angles while he's trying to pull away and at the point he turned now we're face to face and he put his hands, like, grabbed these, bro, and in shock i'm so not unconsciously my hands opened to where he could put my hand and officer wilson described the same moments this way. he turned to his -- he's at my vehicle. he turned to his left and handed
the first subject and he said, here, take these. he was holding a pack of cigarillos which was stolen from the market store, several packs, he said, here, hold these, and when he did that, i grashed his a grabbed his arm trying to control something. >> this whole encounter between michael brown and officer wilson seemed so improbable. why, first of all, would a police officer reach through a window and grab somebody and hold on to them? and secondly, why would michael brown of all things try to attack the officer, you know, because, remember, the backstory here by the officer and by the young men or at least dorian johnson was they had just been stopped for walking in the middle of the street. was the police officer going to shoot them because they didn't obey his command to get on the sidewalk? it all seemed improbable.
when i went back and looked at the grand jury testimony, though, it turns out that dorian johnson's view is that, yes, there was the struggle going on between the two men and with respect to the passing off of the rillos those were the things that were stolen earlier from the convenience store. and michael brown when he got into this, you know, this struggle with the police officer he had them in both hands and he passed them off to dorian johnson and the struggle continued. now, of course, officer wilson says at that point he used his free hand to punch him in the face and put him in fear of his life. johnson tells a different story. johnson just says that he was using his hands to get leverage to try to push away from the car. >> we'll have more on this and, joey, i will have you weigh in. but it's going to be hard to know truly what happened because of the conflicting eye wjs accounts. some of the so-called witnesses even admitted they never even actually saw the shooting at all. that's next. plus, are there serious questions about the man who
helped perform michael brown's autopsy? not only is he being called a fraud but when cnn interviewed him, he got very fire riff. you're going to hear it up ahead. i've had moderate to severe plaque psoriasis most my life. but that hasn't stopped me from modeling. my doctor told me about stelara®. it helps keep my skin clearer. with only 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses... ... stelara® helps me be in season. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and increase your risk of infections. some serious infections require hospitalization. before starting stelara®... ...your doctor should test for tuberculosis. stelara® may increase your risk of cancer. always tell your doctor if you have any sign of infection, have had cancer, or if you develop any new skin growths. do not take stelara® if you are allergic to stelara® or any of its ingredients. alert your doctor of new or worsening problems
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him. what is the significance of this? paul, start with you. >> very important piece of evidence because obviously if he had his hands up in a surrender gesture and he was not threatening the officer, then that would suggest that this was a crime that should be prosecuted. but i have to caution you on that, that while 50% of the witnesses may have said that, some of them have him moving forward toward the officer. others were challenged by the prosecutors as to whether they had changed their testimony and whether their testimony was influenced by the testimony of other witnesses. so, those statements may not be truly reliable. >> joey, this is critical, right? you got protesters, everybodies 's doing it, the fact that 50% says, no, half of them missed it or half of them got it right? >> there are 29 witnesses interviewed and of those 29 there were 16 that said, wait a second, he had his hands up, that is, michael brown in a surrender position.
of course, the balance had a different point of view, but when you look at it, it speaks to, you know, were they fabricating or were they indeed telling the truth. there's a different narrative being told by the other witnesses and so you have to balance the two and see who is right and who is wrong. the district attorney certainly when he presented these witnesses in front of the grand jury he voiced the fact there were other statements that they gave to the fbi and the police and some of them have been contradictory, but the issue is there's a question of fact here so people want to know whether or not the grand jury should have credited that and brought the matter to trial since there could have been probable cause or simply disregarded that and that's a big question the community has. >> that's when you say 50% of the witnesses say he has his hands up, that's not a reliable way to describe this evidence because bear in mind a lot of these witnesses when they're interviewed by the fbi and, by the way, they, themselves, said under oath before the grand jury, i didn't really see the incident, somebody else told me about it, that's why i made the
statement or they said they had heard somebody else talk on the television or the radio and they were influenced by that so that makes that -- so i think it's unfair to characterize that as a 50% say hands up. >> i want to go to the next point only five witness statements said that brown reached toward his waist during the confrontation leading up to wilson shooting him to death and so, joey, that speaks to the gun, right? >> see, that's important, suzanne, because whenever someone reaches for their waistband then obviously the officer would have some reasonable fear for his own safety, right? there would be imminent fear that he's in danger. so when you have five witnesses that give that indication and the balance don't see that, it brings to mind a couple of things. are the five witnesses reliable or very reliable and telling the truth? because we have to match this evidence up against what darren wilson said and what did he say in he was concerned because they grabbed, that is michael brown, grabbed for the waist area while he was stumbling or walking towards him. >> paul, let's take this one
here. more than half the witness statements said that brown was running away from wilson when the police officer opened fire on the 18-year-old while fewer than one-fifth of such statements indicated that that was actually not the case. >> well, no, it was not the case and it gets back to the point in all criminal cases, not just this one, it's not the number of witnesses, it's the reliability of the witness testimony. and in the end, you've got to look at the physical evidence to see if it confirms or contradicts the statements. now, we'll be talking about the blood trail later and we'll also be talking about the autopsy reports later. but that -- those pieces of physical evidence seem to contradict some of those statements and for that reason it was thought unreliable by the grand jury. >> joey, take this point on for me because this is, again, another even split here. among witnesses statements said whether or not wilson fired upon brown when the 18-year-old had already collapsed onto the ground. >> sure. that's significant and, again,
we'll address this as it relates to the autopsy report because when michael badden who was hired by the family did the autopsy there was some indication to him also this was a downward trajectory of the bullet going into michael brown's head would be suggestive of the fact that he was bent over in some way. but you have to pause and not only did, of course, michael badden say that but the medical examiner of the county did. but it doesn't answer a very critical question. was michael brown bent over because he was charging the officer? was he bent over because he was cowering having been shot already. was he stumbling because he was shot. those are questions that are open to interpretation. so even though the physical evidence suggests the downward trajectory what really happened remains an open question and unanswered. >> but there's no evidence -- there's no physical evidence and forensic evidence supporting a claim that he was shot repeatedly on the ground after he had fallen to the ground. >> not at all. >> that may pop up on the list of what witnesses say, but it
seems to be clearly contradicted by the physical evidence. >> you bring up a good point which it's about the interpretation and the credibility from these witnesses. we'll go on here because officer wilson testified that michael brown reached for his gun. but it was never tested for fingerprints and that's just one of the potential blunders revealed in this grand jury evidence. going to discuss that next. but, first, we're counting down the days until the cnn heroes all-star tribute, but until then what about last year's honoree? anderson cooper checked in on him. >> reporter: for 17 years they picked up 8 million pounds of trash from america's rivers. last november for his inspiring work chad picked up a big honor. the 2013 cnn hero of the year is chad pregracke. one year later we caught up with him to get an inside look at
what he does and how he does it. at the heart of his work is a massive 800-ton barge that stores the huge piles of trash chad's team collects. it looks like a floating junkyard but -- >> welcome to cnn cribs. >> reporter: -- it's also chad's part-time home. >> pretty much everything is recycled or reclaimed out of old buildings or barns. >> reporter: the goal is serious but there's definitely quirk in this work. >> this is our creepy doll collection. why do we have it? i don't have any idea other than we find a lot of creepy dolls. >> reporter: trash isn't all he needs to look out for on the river. >> one of the safety concerns is actually the flying carp. they really do fly out of the water at high speeds and they get rather big. >> reporter: it's all part of chads work. work that also includes growing trees. chad started this environmental effort in 2007. but he was able to expand it after being named cnn hero of the year. in the end chad's crusade is
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the grand jury transcript from the michael brown shooting has our legal experts questioning how the crime scene was handled afterwards. paul callan, joey jackson, we're going to start with some crime scene protocol questions raised by the medical examiner's testimony. first of all, let's talk about this. the medical examiner did not take pictures, did not take pictures of the crime scene saying that the camera batteries were dead though he did say police were taking photos if he could get if needed. he also did not take measurements of the scene. shredded his notes after writing his report and he was allowed to testify about finding marijuana in michael brown's pockets. so, i mean, i find it kind of incredulous really that that's no batteries to the camera and all these things. laymen watch "svu" and there's something wrong with this. >> if you are the medical examiner there's vast responsibility. there's a dead body there what
you want to do is document, suzanne, all the occurrences around the dead body to have a camera but not take pictures because do you know what, the batteries are dead, and the county will take them anyway, we'll rely upon them, that's totally improper. something you would expect and have every expectation the medical examiner does you want to take measurements who was where, what was what. we know that michael brown was 250 feet from the police car, his body was, the reasonable he didn't take measurements it didn't feel it was that important. he knew exactly what occurred. that's shouldn't that shouldn't occur and when you look at the various things it raises the questions about the competence and reliability of what he does. and as far as scrapping your notes the reason that is significant, suzanne, you always want to have your notes and even if you transcribe them onto a report there were things we know in this case he left out in the report in terms of the shell casings that were there that he
made no mention of in his report but he saw, and the blood that he makes no mention of but was there. and the final thing about the marijuana, you know, the district attorney, the prosecutor in the case apparently spoke a lot about the marijuana issue and the way they got it in through the medical examiner, they said, you checked his pockets, didn't you? yes. did you think he had weapons? no, it wasn't for weapons i wanted to know what was going on and i found marijuana and it raised the question whether or not it was proper for the prosecutors. >> how did you see it? >> i want to put it all in perspective in the sense that, you know, people forget that ferguson is a town of 20of 21,0 people it's essentially a small town and this is a small town police force, similar to small town police forces around the country. and even in new jersey where you have small towns, the county comes in and takes over a homicide scene usually from the local cops. the cops have training. but it's not great training. they don't have a lot of
familiarity with it. and so usually the state police or the county police come in to a serious crime scene which, of course, is what ultimately happened here. and when you look at these errors, they're bush league errors. anybody who watches television would know better than to make errors like these. but i think fortunately and what happened ultimately was most of the things that they botched initially were not the kinds of things that would degrade or change with time. the bloodstains are the bloodstains. they are where they were and so i don't think in the end it probably made a big difference. >> i think it makes a significant difference and i think if you're a town of 21,000 certainly you have batteries in the camera and if you are the medical examiner police officer or small force or not you're going to be called to testify and to rely on the police -- >> what was inaccurate? affected whether the cop was in danger of his life and fired in self-defense? >> a number of things you can argue. >>like what?
>> the items that were left out of the medical examiner's report, the casings, where the casings were or his observations of the casings as opposed to relying on the police. >> there's no dispute there were two casings found in the vicinity of the car. those are the two initial shots. >> i hear what both of you are saying but i want to raise another point here. this is about the officer darren wilson and the potential evidence, right? here it goes on and it says he was allowed to leave the scene. wash his hands, no fingerprint tests were ever done on the gun. no skin cell dna test was done on the gun and then there's the question about the chain of custody as wilson was allowed to his -- to hand in his own weapon rather than it being taken from him so, i mean, this seems like a lot of missed opportunities to gather evidence here in the case. >> absolutely. that's a serious error with respect -- but we're not talking about the medical examiner there. he's a cop who is potentially under investigation. he shouldn't have been allowed to wash his hands. somebody else should have taken care of bagging the gun. let's go back for a second
because in the end when you hook at mistakes you have to say, did it affect the ultimate outcome of the case. now, you raised the issue of fingerprints on the gun, that would be important if there was a claim by anybody that michael brown ever had the gun in his hand. the only thing that is said by the officer is that he could feel michael brown's finger reaching for his finger which was already on the gun. that suggests there was no physical contact between wilson's -- between brown's fingers and the gun and it also -- >> disagreement, too. when you're reaching for a gun and there's certainly testimony darren wilson suggested that he had the gun that he was pushing it down towards them, certainly i would want to know and test the gun to challenge your claim did he touch that gun and in the event my finger was on the finger guard i would want to know is there a fingerprint on that gun, is there dna on that gun, it goes to the claim how in danger the officer really was and did he act in accordance with that danger. >> got to go. joey, paul, we're going to deal
with another issue. was the man who helped perform the autopsy on michael brown qualified to even do it as questions swirl about his credentials. cnn has tracked him down and this is how he responded to one of his critics -- >> he has holy [ bleep ] excuse my language but i got [ bleep ] e-mails to prove him and i going back and forth and the fact that he ignores me. he's a [ bleep ]. >> wow. we're going to play you the full response coming up. you're not going to want to miss this one. huh, fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. everybody knows that. well, did you know genies can be really literal?
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in the michael brown case questions are swirling about a man who served as an assistant during one of the autopsies on brown's body. a cnn investigation raises new concerns about shawn parcells qualifications. senior medical correspondent elizabeth cohen has more on parcells past. >> the ferguson, missouri, case, created a media star out of an assistant pathologist but a cnn investigation shows he may not be exactly what he appears to be. >> reporter: out of the death and violence in ferguson, missouri, this summer a turn to be a media star for a man named shawn parcells. >> first of all, i'm professor shawn parcells. >> reporter: he dazzled with details on the private autopsy of michael brown. >> two gunshot wounds to the head indicating that mr. brown was bending over as they were coming down. >> we're back with shawn parcells who assisted in the autopsy of michael brown.
>> now shawn parcells. >> reporter: even here on cnn. he's appeared in the media time and again as a forensic pathology expert. we know he assisted dr. michael badden in the private autopsy commissioned by michael brown's family. badden said he was a good assistant. is he what he says he is? so you call yourself a professor. >> yes. >> reporter: where are you a professor? >> i'm an adjunct professor at washburn university in topeka, kansas. >> reporter: but that as far as we could tell isn't accurate. we contacted washburn university, they say while he has spoken to nursing students, he's not now and never been an adjunct professor there. washburn university says it's not true. >> i have a contract that says it is true. >> reporter: can you show us that contract? >> i can >> reporter: but he never showed us that contract that said he
was anned a jun ed ned ed ned . >> i would describe him as a fraud. that's the best way to describe shawn parcells to me. >> manipulator. >> very good con artist is the way i'd put it. >> reporter: in missouri deputy sheriffs say shawn parcells performed an autopsy procedure in a criminal case without a doctor present. so he introduced himself as a pathologist, as a medical doctor? >> that is correct. >> reporter: and he seemed believable. >> very well. >> yes. >> reporter: i mean, you two are both experienced law enforcement officers. and even you were duped. >> that's right. >> reporter: the deputies say without a medical doctor's signature on robert forester's autopsy report, it's not valid. it's been more than two years since the crime. can you move forward with the prosecution? >> we cannot move forward at this time with that case at all. >> reporter: why? >> because the autopsy was not performed legally so we cannot use any evidence found from the
autopsy in a court of law to be used to prosecute any suspects on the case. >> reporter: that means according to the deputies, bobby forester suspected of killing his grandfather was set free and he went on to beat up his grandmother. shawn parcells says he never told the deputies he was a doctor. >> they want to think i'm a doctor that's their issue. people assume stuff all the time and they may never ask. it's -- it's -- it's bad that they're assuming and that they never asked. >> reporter: parcells who has a bachelor's degree says he's supervised by medical doctors but sometimes they're not present when he performs an autopsy procedure. so you do autopsies where there's not a pathologist or an m.d. anywhere in the room? >> at times. sometimes the pathologist is there. and sometimes they're not. >> reporter: you're not an m.d. >> i'm not an m.d.? >> reporter: but it's legal for you to be cutting up bodies, taking organs out, making observations? >> yes. >> reporter: this even though a
letter on his own company's letterhead states unequivocally that during each and every forensic autopsy conducted the attending pathology is present at all times. we always have the attending pathologist present and directing the autopsy examination. and if you think that's shocking, the owner of this funeral home says parcells promised to arrange for an autopsy on the remains of an unidentified body. but didn't show up for more than a week, maggots appeared, and where's that body now? phelps county deputy coroner lenox jones would love to know. he said he's not heard from parcells in more than a year. when we asked parcells where's the body? we got a barrage of obscenities. lenox jones says he's never heard back from you. >> he has. holy [ bleep ] excuse my language but i got [ bleep ] e-mails to prove him and i going back and forth and the fact that he ignores me. he's a [ bleep ]. you want to be truthful? he is a [ bleep ] and i'm sorry
to cuss like this on your cameras but this particular case pisses me off. >> reporter: parcells added the coroner can pick up the body at his morgue in topeka anytime. with coroners and law enforcement so angry, why haven't they gone after him? captain mary chase says prosecutors might be worried. she says some of them may have used his autopsy reports to get convictions, convictions they don't want overturned. >> it could be a problem for that prosecuting attorney if that prosecutor has prosecuted somebody based upon shawn's findings, of course, that's a problem. >> reporter: for the prosecutor. >> for the prosecutor. >> reporter: so no one wants to go after him. >> no one has. no one has to this point. >> a county in missouri did file a complaint with the state's medical licensing board saying they expected a pathologist to be at the procedure, but instead parcells did it on his own. the board closed the case without taking any action, and wouldn't tell us why. back to you.
>> thanks, elizabeth. parcells insists that the forester death investigation was, quote, doomed from the start because the dead man's body was imbalmed prior to the autopsy and a sheriff's department never turned over records needed for the autopsy report to be completed. but the sheriff's office says parcells never asked for such records. so want to bring in paul and joey to weigh in on that up next. it's more than the driver. it's more than the car. for lotus f1 team, the competitive edge is the cloud. powered by microsoft dynamics, azure, and office 365, the team can gain real time insights and instantly share information around the globe. when every millisecond counts, staying competitive begins with the cloud. this is the microsoft cloud.
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we're back with more on ferguson and the controversial man who helped perform a private autopsy on michael brown's body. shawn parcells stepped into the media spotlight back in august when he assisted famed pathologist dr. michael badden with the private autopsy commissioned by the brown family attorneys. well, now there are serious questions regarding parcells' credentials. he's not even a doctor. my legal panel is back. and, boy, you know, we watched this, all three of us, were kind of incredulous by what we were seeing here. i'll start with you, paul, do you think that this makes any difference, any impact on the testimony and what we've learned the outcome of michael brown's death? >> well, i've always been disturbed about the fact that there were too many autopsies that had been done in this case in the first place because, you know, when you try a case, you're always afraid your experts are going to be in constrict with one another. you want to have a nice clean presentation and now this, of course, is just going to add to it because he's obviously a fraud and a phony and it's going
to put badden's whole autopsy into substantial doubt leaving only the medical examiner and, of course, there was yet another autopsy that was done by federal authorities in connection with the case. >> joey, did he break any rules or laws in missouri state and could this guy go to prison, really? >> in the event you pass yourself off as something that you're not certainly becomes a problem, right, suzanne, right? you're representing to the world that you're a person licensed to do these things and your credentials as a bachelor's degree, saying you are a professor at a college you're really not, whenever you have someone that doesn't have the right credentials working on something it raises the questions. as to how it affects this case, though, it depends on the exact role he had, badden was the lead person and supervised him and we would suspect that -- is this relevant, i know the jury has ruled in this matter but there's a federal investigation, two federal investigations and a potential civil suit by the family. >> did badden have any
obligation, paul, to look at the guy's credentials and question who am i dealing with, who is assisting me? >> one of the things that concerned me was when i watched the press conference originally badden took a very minimal role at the press conference and this guy was the one doing all the talking and demonstrating. it really looked like he was the one who was the primary mover on the autopsy so i would think dr. badden would have checked him out before he put him in such a pr prominent role? >> he's been involved in a series of cases before and it could be that he took the lead role, badden is already famous but we want you to get the spotlight. i know badden but you have to do your due diligence because things that come out like this put you into question. >> final thoughts here, guys, we've seen this week develop. we've seen all of this come out here. i mean, we've pored through the evidence, the lack of evidence here. what's your takeaway, paul?
>> this case -- america's been m mez rised by this case and how police officers treat minorities and african-americans in particular and people are concerned about that. but when i look at the evidence as someone that tried murder cases as a prosecutor and defense attorney the one thing i keep seeing is reasonable doubt. and even if there had been an indictment for some reasonable on this evidence and there was a full trial, there is so much reasonable doubt built into all the contradictions in the evidence, everything in the case is contradictory, that in my opinion it would be virtually no chase of a conviction in the case. and what would we do but prolong the agony through a jury trial and for no reason. and i think that's what ultimately the grand jury looked at and they said, there's not -- they'll never be a conviction in the case. >> i got to get you in here. >> i see another way because reasonable doubt is an issue for trial, suzanne, the issue before that grand jury wasn't reasonable doubt, it was
probable cause and based upon what i see going through the testimony really raises the question and the question that's raised with me is should prosecutors be really policing the police officers and should police officers be investigating their own cases. i think moving forward if there was some independence there, there would be some measure of trust in an investigation. there would be some measure of calm in the community because they would know it's reliable. but if you work with someone, you trust someone, and you're depen dent upon them for your cases now and cases in the future, how else are you going to treat them? so what i would really like to see is some measure of independence and for prosecutors not to get involved in cases involving the police. >> got to leave it there, joey, paul, thank you so much for your very good analysis. predators don't have to be strangers. they can even be old classmates. how one mom found out her daughter was the target.
big day? ah, the usual. moved some new cars. hauled a bunch of steel. kept the supermarket shelves stocked. made sure everyone got their latest gadgets. what's up for the next shift? ah, nothing much. just keeping the lights on. (laugh) nice. doing the big things that move an economy. see you tomorrow, mac. see you tomorrow, sam. just another day at norfolk southern.
here's a scenario. your daughter starts getting texts from one of your old classmates and then you let her accept his friend request on facebook, because he was an okay guy. but things get a little scary. >> a message from kevin stosher popped up. i didn't think anything of it, because of the last name. my family is really good friends with them.
and they're really well-known in our hometown. and i remember reading the message. it said, "hi,tory, my name is kevin. i went to high school with your mom." >> i said kevin stosher, he sent you a friend request too? and she said yeah. and i said i guess. if you want to accept it you can. it's somebody my age. it isn't one of your friends. i never thought more of it. >> i said hi, kind of just small talk. and then it went to say you're really beautiful. kevin continued to talk to me throughout the night. he had told me that he was in rapid city, south dakota. that he might be coming to town to ft. pierre, south dakota. i did not reply.
i went to school the next day, and a couple of my girlfriends in my grade had had said this kevin stosher guy keeps contacting me. i was like, what? it was basically the same thing. like, do you know tory diehl, i went to high school with her mom and would ask them to hang out and continue to tell them how beautiful they were. >> i said, seriously? he's saying those things to you? so i asked for the number, and i said, you need to stop texting my daughter and her friends. that's just not cool. you know? they're 20 years younger than you. you just don't do that. and he responded sorry, i understand. no hard feelings. i thought that was the end of it. it was shortly after that when she told me kevin wasn't stopping. and i kbooths googled his name.
i had sent her this text. get on the computer and block that kevin. tell your friend too. he just got out of prison for raping a young girl. now, tell everyone. >> wow. find out what happened next tonight at 7:00 eastern when cnn begins a marathon session of "the hunt" with john walsh. watch some of the most harrowing and mysterious cases. up next, the picture that many, many people needed to see after a week like this. a 12-year-old black boy, tears streaming down his face, you can see. and a white police officer embracing in the middle of a ferguson-related demonstration. the details after this. ♪
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here in the "cnn newsroom," i'm suzanne malveaux. every now and then we see something that stops us in our tracks, something that might help put things into perspective. that is what many are saying about this photo. this shows a white officer hugging an african-american boy during a ferguson protest in portland, oregon. but it is the story about